Krishnamurti, the Soul and Reincarnation

Another Q & A with Jagannatha Prakasa (John of AllFaith) © 11.26.09

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Question:What can be the possible reasons for Jiddu krishnamurti for denying the existence of self/soul/atman/reincarnation etc?

My reply:

Hi,

I'm not an advocate of Krishnamurti's beliefs or teachings, however he didn't exactly say this.

Krishnamurti was an Advaitan who sought to blend Vedanta with Western Science. Vedanta, as you probably know, is an Advaitan Hindu school of thought that teaches the absolute Oneness of all existence. They are not strictly speaking Atheists, they are Monists. They believe in "God" and in the Soul (Atman) however they believe that beyond illusion (maya) all existence is utterly One, Undifferentiated: tat tvam asi ("I Am That"). This is an ancient view held by various sects of Hinduism (mainly arising from Srila Sankara's teachings in reaction to those of the Buddha).

This ties in with the question of reincarnation in that if everything is ONE, then there is nothing to incarnate "from" (previous lives) or into (a next life). There is only the Eternal Now of the One Existence. This is where he was coming from with all of his teachings.

This view, coupled with Western Atheism and Science leaves no room for the acceptance of anything that can not be independently demonstrated.

Like all too many Hindus, Christians, Jews and others Krishnamurti, in my opinion, had lost faith in his ancient culture and heritage and was trying to "modernize" it by embracing Secular Humanism. In doing so, he polluted it and lost what was essential in it (as have many Hindus, Christians, Jews and others with the beliefs they inherited from their forebears). In his case, by blending Advaita (which was essentially a Hindu attempt to answer/survive Buddhism) with Secular Humanism.

Of the existence of the Atman (Soul) as a concept he said:

"…is there an area in the human brain, or in the very nature and structure of a human being, not merely in the outer world of his activities but inwardly, deep in the vast quiet recesses of his own brain, something that is not the outcome of memory, not the movement of a continuity?"… "There is most certainly, definitely, an area where the past doesn’t cast a shadow, where time, the past or the future or the present has no meaning."… "You can’t ascend through knowledge; there must be an end to knowledge for the new to be. New is a word for something which has never been before. And that area cannot be understood or grasped by words or symbols; it is beyond all remembrances."

Note this bit especially: "... There is most certainly, definitely, an area where the past doesn’t cast a shadow, where time, the past or the future or the present has no meaning."… "You can’t ascend through knowledge; there must be an end to knowledge for the new to be...."

"An end to knowledge" is Vedanta ("Vedas' End").

Like the Buddha, Krishnamurti taught that only that which can be independently verified should be accepted as "real" or true (or as existing). With our present limited abilities and evidences, the existence of the Soul can not be conclusively demonstrated by their Scientific methods. This does not mean the Soul is not real, only that we are unable to verify it by the current limited sciences-so-called.

This is where Krishnamurti and others, in my opinion, miss the mark. Driven by their Humanist beliefs, they fail to take human limitations into account. Just because most of us lack the spiritual realizations and consciousness of the Masters does not negate their realizations. Indeed, the role of the Masters is to enlighten the rest of us and draw us into ever deeper understandings and realizations. It takes a degree of humility to acknowledge that Truth exists beyond our grasps as individuals, and yet clearly It does. We all have areas where we excel and areas where we lag behind. Should the grammar school student conclude that the High school student who speaks of calculus is mistaken simply due to a lack in his/her own knowledge of higher mathematics? This is what those who reject the Master's knowledge, experiences and realizations do. Of course this must be balanced. Not everything ancient is necessarily true.

If one can not prove the Soul exists (and by their standards one can not thus far) then to their minds there is no evidence of reincarnation, resurrection, or an afterlife of any kind. Without objective evidence such people tend to deny their existence.

HOWEVER, while objective evidence is still far from conclusive, it is gradually mounting. Many people are becoming convinced that reincarnation (and/or an afterlife) is true based on observation and personal near death experiences etc. And so again Krishnamurti said:

"... We will be very definite. The idea of reincarnation existed long before Christianity. It is prevalent almost throughout India and probably in the whole Asiatic world. Firstly: what is it that incarnates; not only incarnates now, but reincarnates again and again? Secondly: the idea of there being scientific evidence that reincarnation is true, is causing people to escape their problems and that causes the questioner concern. Is he really concerned that people are escaping?"

It existed throughout the Pre-Christian Western world as well.

As Krishnamurti correctly noted, objective evidence is beginning to be found and this is needlessly threatening some people. Our goal should be the determination of Truth rather than the verification (or defeat) of the various belief systems. Medical science may yet discover/prove the Soul's existence. N.D.E. resulting from medical advances is shedding some life and people return with tales of their premature post-death experiences. Of course, there are theories to discount these experiences as well. Ignorance seldom goes away quietly. But the survival of physical death has not yet fully been proven. Belief in such things remains an act of faith based on what is known.

Krishnamurti continues with his presentation of the essence of Vedanta and his beliefs:

".. So there is evidence of remembrance of things past, of a past life. That remembrance is the accumulated `me’, the ego, the personality. That bundle, modified, chastened, polished a little bit, goes on to the next life. So it is not a question of whether there is reincarnation (I am very definite on this matter, please) but that there is incarnation now; what is far more important than reincarnation, is the ending of this mess, this conflict, now. Then something totally different goes on. Being unhappy, miserable, sorrow-ridden, one says: “I hope the next life will be better”. That hope for the next life is the postponement of facing the fact now."

See? This was his interest.

Based on his Advaitan beliefs he failed to understand the importance of Samsara and rebirth according to the Scriptures and experiences of his people. Due to his lack of knowledge and experience of the independent eternal existence of the Soul/Self and the interplay between the Atman (Self) and Bhagavan Parmatman (God/Supreme Self), Krishnamurti considered life a "mess" or this conflict to be ended rather than a series of lessons to be learned as we (Souls) continue our eternal sojourn.

And again:

"You may ask me: “Do you believe in reincarnation?” Right? I do not believe in anything. This is not an evasion I have no belief and it does not mean that I am an atheist, or that I am ungodly. Go into it, see what it means. It means that the mind is free from all the entanglements of belief."

He said this implying it meant he was an enlightened being, but that is not the case. It merely means he has yet to attain enlightenment, that he remained yet ignorant of the spiritual realities and would not accept as real what was beyond his personal experience.

Source: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, OJAI, CALIFORNIA – 13TH MAY 1980 ‘REINCARNATION’

As Srimad Bhagavad Gita tells us:

2:12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
2:13: As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul also passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.

Krishnamurti was bewildered by this change. One need not be.

Hope this helps,

~ Jagannatha Prakasa
~ John of AllFaith

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