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Various Discussions about the Crafte of the Wise Discussion held via e-mail during October, 2001 |
What the heck is a not-so-pagan witch?
"S"
John of AllFaith:
Hi "S"
I can offer a few thoughts on this one, even though I'm not sure what spawned it ;-)
Witches who do not work skyclad are not-so Pagan.
Witches who do not hold their esbats at Midnight are not-so Pagan.
Witches who do not include some form of sexuality in their esbats (at least symbolically) are not-so Pagan.
Witches who incorporate Buddhism and other traditions into their Work are not-so Pagan.
Witches who do not utilize the principles of gender-polarity are not-so Pagan.
Witches who deem "child appropriate" rites to be fundamentally different from other rites are not-so Pagan (one of the main things that led to the death of the Old Religion is that they stopped initiating their children into the Old Ways, they began hiding their practices from them. Of course, they had little choice. A misspoken word by the children could have deadly consequences, but it was this, more than the burnings, dunkings, etc. that lead to the death of the Old Ways.It can of course be debated what is and is not "traditional Witchrafte" and "Paganism." But I think these points are givens. Traditional WitchCrafte and Paganism stressed the importance of gender polarity, harmony with nature, and the various nature spirits. They worked in accordance with their own cultural traditions (for instance, historically Welsh Witches would not include German traditions in their rites, etc.).
The traditional Crafte was a passionate, lusty, energetic way of life. They entered into the mysteries held by their elders with zeal and a sense of cultural abandon. This is one of the big things the Christian Church objected to. They preferred more staid and controlled lifestyles whereas the Pagans they encountered actively rejected the "morality" of the imposed culture; they wildly danced and celebrated in the nude, they practiced sex magic and rites, they boldly controlled and/or manipulated the spirits. Some worshiped gods and goddesses, some honored or opposed various nature spirits, but they all lived on the cusp between the so-called "real world" and the "spirit world." This was the source of their power, their mystery and their Way.
The Crafte was a highly spiritual, nature-based way of life that terrified the early Church when they came upon them. With few exceptions, the modern Crafte has very few of the traditional Pagan traits that once so typified the Old Religion.
It is very difficult to find truly Pagan groups today.
Just my thoughts,
~John of AllFaith
Another:
My Grandmother is a Catholic Witch. She makes offerings to the saints, special gifts to specific saints for different issues. Healing animals, finding lost objects, mesenges to the dead and such. Folk magic does not necesarily have to be Pagan, as in earth worship/celebrating based.
I do not consider ceremonial magic to be Pagan, as it uses a Judaic base of Kabahla. What do you think? Can Kabalah and its related offshoots really be considered Pagan?
John of AllFaith:
Absolutely not.
Pagan means nature-based. Kabala is not in the least Pagan. It is the exact opposite, transcending even nominal Judaism; it rises into the realm of the supernal.
Christianity, including Catholicism, is the blending of Pagan and Jewish beliefs and practices -- see my http://allfaith. com/Religions/ Noahide/way4. html for more on this. Many Christian rites etc. are Pagan-based, if not technically Pagan.
~John of AllFaith
"F":
Sorry for any confusion. I have a degree in Religious Studies and forget that I'm talking to regular people sometimes (not meaning anything derogitory).
A pagan is pretty similar to a witch, but a WITCH can be from ANY religion, as other members have stated. PAGANS tend to come from religions which are earth-based and tend to have more than one deity.
A WITCHES study Majick specifically, versus worship and mythology which is included in paganism.
Does this make sense? Let me know and I can get really specific, just might have to do some citations is all.
"F," begins by quoting John of AllFaith:
[JofA]: "Christianity, including Catholicism, is the blending of Pagan and Jewish beliefs and practices -- see my http://allfaith. com/Religions/ Noahide/way4. html for more on this. Many Christian rites etc. are Pagan-based, if not technically Pagan."
["F"]: This is true in that Christianity is a blending of MANY faiths; not just Judaism. They borrowed a lot from the state religions of Rome at the genesis of this religion, the "mystery" cults as they called them. The Christians got their themes of the "dying and resurrecting God" from some of these cults.
Yah... there's a lot of everything in every religion.
John of AllFaith:
Hi "F,"
I also have an MA in Religious Studies, an Interfaith ordination as well as three Christians ordinations, a Welsh Pagan initiation, etc. (just mentioning it because you did).
Christianity certainly has elements of many religious traditions, but mainly, it was formed upon Emperor Constantine's orders by the admixture of the worship of Sol Invictus (a form of Roman Paganism) and Judaism (based on the teachings of Rebbe Y'shua [and Paul]). The state religion of Rome was Paganism in various forms; Constantine worshiped Sol Invictus, the Sun God. Many of the Mystery Schools, were not strictly Pagan, some were, but the Paganism that was merged into the New Religion was the public form favored by the Roman citizenry, not the Mystery Traditions for the most part.
The origins of "Satan" stems from the Pagan god of crops, Cernunos, etc. The Catholic Co-Redemptress Mary hails mainly from the Pagan goddesses, and so on. The non-Pagan and non-Jewish aspects of the Universal Church (i.e. Catholicism) were added later and do little more than flavour what was already there. Christianity is primarily a mixture of Paganism and Judaism, much more Pagan than Jewish.
As for "Witches," there are the stregge, brujo, etc. but the word "witch" usually refers to Western European seers, healers, etc. Not all Pagans are Witches, but all Witches are Pagans. One might read about witches in India etc., but this is someone using the word incorrectly. In order to translate whatever word into English, many people use this one. For instance, English translations of the Torah condemn "witches," but the word really means "poisoners" and has nothing to do with "Witches."
Blessed be,
~John of AllFaith
"F":
John,
If you study Kabbalah, you will find that "Keter is in Malkut as Malkut is in Keter" In other words, the Divine is in All of Nature.
How is that different from the gnosis in paganism? Kabbalah provides a mechanism for many things. A monkey wrench doesn't need to have a religion. ;->
For more info, you may wish to read Aryeh Kaplan, Art Waskow, and Elie Sheva to name a few. Further, if you read Hebrew, you know that it is a Talmudic Rabbinical conceit which refers to YHVH as masculine. It is historically known from antiquity that a vowel point existed which made YHVH both masculine and feminine and, is in fact, merely a different way of expressing the Wiccan Great Rite and Crowley's sex magick formula.
Lest I mislead you and others, Kabbalah *was* traditionally very chauvinistic. Kabbalah as taught by the Jewish Orthodoxy is *still* very chauvinistic. But Judaism is vast and Orthodox Jews are a minority, however politically dominant.
Love,
"F"
John of AllFaith:
Hi "F",
I didn't list all of mine either ;-)
This may be viewed as a question of semantics I suppose, but "witch doctors" are usually better referred to as shaman etc. "Witch doctor" is a pejorative term meaning ignorant or superstitious medical hacks. Its a Christian slang.
The brujos are largely the spiritual descendants of traditional European (Spanish etc.) WitchCrafte, coupled with traditional indigenous beliefs. I suppose they could be considered Witches, but the names they use, Brujos etc. seem better and more respectful of their traditions to me.
Catholics who embrace various nature-based occult practices are generally termed Voodun [or Santeria: "The way of the saints" is a form of Yoruban tribal religion brought to the Caribbean by African slaves, combined with elements of Christianity. Believers prefer the title "Lukumi" (friends) or "Regla de Ocha" (Rule of the Orisha) over Santeria], in various forms, and Regla de Ocha is its own tradition based on traditional African religion coupled with Catholicism; i.e. they are not Witches.
I'd certainly never tell anyone they cannot call themselves whatever they wish, but I am convinced that WitchCrafte, properly speaking, is a European spiritual crafte practiced by certain non-Roman, non-Greek Pagan Traditions. Maybe its just semantics, but I see several differences between Western European WitchCrafte and Shamanism etc. Celebrating the uniqueness of the Western Crafte is, in my opinion, a good thing. It bespeaks an established pre-Christian Western European tradition of religion, healing and culture. "Taking back" the word Witch is an empowering thing and one of the things people like Gardner was trying to achieve in order to restore honor to this lost tradition.
As for Constantine and Christianity: This is the topic of the page I referenced, http://allfaith. com/Religions/ Noahide/way4. html. Rebbe Y'shua or Jesus established a Jewish Movement (like Reform Judaism etc.), Paul of Tarsus reinterpreted his teachings according to more Hellenistic concepts and established the sect as a Jewish Movement that accepted Noahides (Gentiles who devoted themselves to the God of Israel). For the first 300 years, this is what "Christianity" was. It was mainly referred to as the Nazarene Way or simply as the Way.
Constantine was looking for a way to bring unity to the Roman Empire. He realized that religion (Roman Paganism) was the heart of his "divine rule," but it was having problems, hypocrisy, infighting, etc. Constantine's mother told him that she had converted to the Jewish sect of the Nazarenes and was impressed by what she was learning from them.
Constantine called for various Nazarene leaders to come to Rome and explain their faith. He then claimed to have had a vision of Rebbe Y'shua [similar to Paul's) appearing on the clouds with a chi-ro (cross) and ordered him, "Under this emblem establish My kingdom." He then called for counsels of Roman Pagans, Jews and Nazarene Jews (Noahide followers of the Way). The Nazarenes were willing to play ball, if it would stop the persecutions. The Jews insulted Constantine however, demanding there was only one God, the God of Israel, and that their God would have no share with Pagans. These Jews were chased away (some were killed etc.).
The official Roman councils continued to meet and the theologians developed a new religion called Universalism that would unite all of Rome into a single faith, better known to us as "Catholicism." The new religion was based in Rome and the new bishops and priests hailed the new Roman Universal Church as the Kingdom of God on earth, hence, Roman Catholicism. All Jewish aspects of the Nazarene Way were condemned as "Judaizing" and bit by bit the new Pagan/Nazarene religion was established as Roman Catholicism and the modern Christian religion was born.
Later, following the rise of Islam, the "One True Apostolic Catholic Church" split into eastern and western Christendom (Roman and Eastern Orthodoxy). Later the Church of England rebelled over marriage issues (Anglicanism) and shortly after that, Martin Luther did his thing and the Protestant Reformation happened, (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptists, etc. etc.). Every Christian awakening intended to restore the "First Century Church," but none could because they always accepted the essential Roman counsels (Nicea etc.) where the Paganized Christian teachings were first formulated and adopted.
This is why Christianity bears almost no doctrinal similarities with Judaism and is so very similar to Paganism.
Constantine didn't even convert to the New Religion on his deathbed. The last thing he did before dying was order the striking of a new coin of himself on one side and Sol Invictus, his Pagan God, on the other.
Shortly before his death he was seen bowing before an image of Sol Invictus. A servant saw him and assuming he was getting senile, the servant said, "Your lordship, that is the image of Sol, not Jesus." The emperor finished his prayers, stood up and said, "What does it matter? Sol Invictus is the Sun God, Jesus is the Sun's son."
"Wicca" and "Wicci" are recently coined terms meaning "Wise ones" but essentially a Wicci is a female "Witch" and a Wicca is a male Witch. A Witch or Wic (wise one) being the source of Gardner''s idea here. A "warlock" is a "loch" or lake of pestilence by the way. I agree that WitchCrafte is not a religion perse; Witches are healers and elders or certain European Pagan communities. Witches were a sort of a specially trained and gifted guild. There were Religious schools like the Druids etc. however the "common people" are better thought of as simple Pagans or heathens ("people of the heath" or rural country folk). Witches were among the leaders of their communities. This is how I would explain it at least.
No offense was intended and hopefully none was taken. It seems to me that modern witchcraft is moving ever farther away from its origins.
~John of AllFaith
John of AllFaith: Hi "F,"
"F": John, >If you study Kabbalah, you will find that "Keter is in Malkut as Malkut is in Keter" In other words, the Divine is in All of Nature. How is that different from the gnosis in paganism? John of AllFaith: Its different because above Sephirah Kether is En-Soph; all forms of Adam Kadmon are but dim reflections of that higher Reality. Malkuth is Kether "of a different order," but both are subservient reflections of En-Soph, and all 10 Sephirah have that as their ultimate goal and destination. Paganism, as existing in traditional Western WitchCrafte, does not have this supernal concept/aspect. Unlike Kabala, Paganism is a nature-based tradition. This in no way means it is any less... or whatever... only different. Kabala is absolutely not a form of Pagan knowledge (gnosis), even though many Pagans study it. Outside the confines of the Zohar etc., Kabala cannot rightly be understood as intended by DeLeon et al.
"F": Kabbalah provides a mechanism for many things. A monkey wrench doesn't need to have a religion. ;->
John of AllFaith: The purpose and purport of Kabala is not as a "monkey wrench" to manipulate the material world, but as a Key to unlock the higher realizations of the utterly transcendent En-Soph. It is, by definition, a chief tool of religious (Jewish) thought and mysticism. Certainly, those of other disciplines can learn and grow through it, but Kabala is what it is, Jewish mysticism.
"F": For more info, you may wish to read Aryeh Kaplan, Art Waskow, and Elie Sheva to name a few.
John of AllFaith: Thanks, I could add many others as well. I'd suggest beginning with the Zohar, the Tanya, and the Sefer Yetzirah.
"F": Further, if you read Hebrew, you know that it is a Talmudic Rabbinical conceit which refers to YHVH as masculine. It is historically known from antiquity that a vowel point existed which made YHVH both masculine and feminine and, is in fact, merely a different way of expressing the Wiccan Great Rite and Crowley's sex magick formula.
John of AllFaith: Not quite. I believe you are referring to the Sacred Name Elohiym not the Tetragrammaton, which has no vowel points. The vowel points are of much later origin and no one with knowledge ever claims to know the proper vowel points for the Ha-Shem [the Name]), which is neither male nor female, being the clearest reflection of En-Soph which is neither. If you will refer to the Sefer Yetzirah, I believe this will be clear, and Kaplin, Luzzato and most other Jewish authorities say the same. Crowley's ideas are fascinating, I also have some experience with the OTO, but these are alternative or at the least heterodox understandings.
It is certainly true that Ha-Shem is never found without Shekinah. I certainly did not in any case intend to suggest that the Holy One is exclusively male. Such a thought runs completely counter to Paganism and the Crafte (and Kabala). Paganism is based squarely on gender polarity. The difference is that in Kabala even this polarity is transcended (as in Taoism at the 'point' where Yin and Yang merge as one in Tao). In traditional Paganism, gender polarity is never transcended; such is unthinkable. This is essentially, what makes Paganism "pagan."
I am in no way opposed to either Paganism or the Crafte, nor am I qualifying them. My point here was with the description of the historic Crafte, not its authenticity. The term "Witch" has certain essential meanings. To stretch its usage too far is disempowering and makes it meaningless. This was the successful strategy of the Christian Church, and today practically no one knows what a "Witch" is.
"F": Lest I mislead you and others, Kabbalah *was* traditionally very chauvinistic. Kabbalah as taught by the Jewish Orthodoxy is *still* very chauvinistic.
John of AllFaith: Kabala *IS* the Torah-based tradition of Orthodox Judaism, based squarely on the Zohar and a few other key texts. By modern sensibilities, it is sexist, but from a deeper understanding, it is not as it tends toward unity.
"F": But Judaism is vast and Orthodox Jews are a minority, however politically dominant.
John of AllFaith: Orthodox Judaism is only a minority movement in the US. Orthodox Judaism is THE historic and oldest extant form of Judaism by far [the Karites are second]. It is the Pharisee Party of ancient Israel, the Sadducees, Essenes, etc. all died out around 70 CE. Reform Judaism, Conservative and Reconstructionism are all new Western born forms among liberal Jews. I'm not knocking them, but Orthodox Judaism is certainly NOT a minority view among many. It is Judaism.
Another member:
This is all so interesting! ! It's making me want to go back to school!! I miss intellectual stimulas!! Doubt if I'll finish my PhD, but maybe I'll get a minor in religious studies!!
BLESSED BE!
Spend some time at AllFaith.com!
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